The Crises of the Sexes (and what to do about it) w/ Pastor Rich Lusk

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Nathan Spearing: Welcome back to the life on target podcast on your hosts. Nathan spearing, bringing you my interview today with. Rich Lusk, pastor rich Lusk. And I got to tell you that this conversation went. A completely different direction than I expected. And I'm glad it did. I brought them on to discuss some of his points of view.

Nathan Spearing: Relating to his lecture slash sermon on bring your guns to church. Which unfortunately has implications based on stuff that's going on currently in our country. But we also transitioned over to discussing family dynamics, husband, and wife dynamics, things that manifest themselves in the church and how that's a reflection of the culture and how it shouldn't be, how the church should be immune to some of these confusions and things that we see in the culture.

And why pastors need to not be afraid to [00:01:00] confront women's sin. Y husbands need to lead, but also how to cultivate brotherhood and friendship with other men to have advice available to you when you're going through difficult times, how that should. Manifest itself in the church and in your family. So really enjoy this conversation with pastor.

Rich Lusk.

Nathan Spearing: So Pastor Lusk, thanks for being with us today.

Rich Lusk: Thank you for having me.

Rich Lusk: Great to be here.

Nathan Spearing: Fill, uh everyone in the listeners on, your family and vocational, uh, stats if they haven't run in the C R E C circles and, and haven't been familiar with you today.

Rich Lusk: I pastor, uh, Trinity Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and have been here, I, I wanna say maybe about 19 years or so, maybe coming up on 19 years.

Rich Lusk: Uh, so for a while, and, uh, God's been very gracious to us here. We're a CREC congregation and, uh, been married for, wow, 20, what, 27 [00:02:00] years? Maybe? 28 years this year, I think, uh, to Jenny. And, uh, we got four kids. All of whom are grown and outta the house. Two are married, another engaged, and another's freshman in college.

Rich Lusk: So she's not quite there yet. But, uh, son is my oldest and then three girls and, uh, so they're all walking faithfully with the Lord. Couldn't be prouder of him. So, um, that's a little bit of background on me.

Nathan Spearing: What was the, maybe go a little, little further back in time for, you know, your upbringing and, and how you found yourself.

Nathan Spearing: as a pastor, kind of what was the, your education like growing up and, and the path that God brought you along?

Rich Lusk: Yeah. That's great. So I was, I was raised in a Christian home. and, uh, very thankful for God-loving, God-fearing parents. Uh, we moved around quite a bit, uh, settled in the Chicago area. Uh, so that's where I, um, had, you know, some very formative [00:03:00] years.

Rich Lusk: Junior high, high school. Uh, always went to public schools, almost always growing up. Um, but you know, my parents have been very faithful in, in teaching and in training. Me training my brother in the faith. And, uh, and I, I had no, I certainly had no desire to be a pastor, but I did have a desire to walk faithfully with the Lord.

Rich Lusk: And so, um, when it was time to leave for college, uh, I realized I didn't know the, the faith as well as I wanted to know it. And so I realized that the kind of, uh, even though I read my Bible a lot, I knew I didn't understand very much. , the kind of reading I had done was really mostly more, uh, devotional type reading, not very deep.

Rich Lusk: And uh, so I went, um, to the, uh, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, uh, bookstore to pick up a few books to take with me, uh, to college. And I had really didn't know anything. I mean, I, I had, I had been catechized a little bit in the shorter catechism, but I really didn't know, [00:04:00] uh, the lay of the land very well theologically.

Rich Lusk: and uh, so I didn't really know what I was getting myself into, but I ended up buying a copy of Arthur Pink's, the Sovereignty of God. . Hmm. And, uh, of course that that opened, uh, my eyes to a lot of things, uh, and made me a Calvinist Before I even knew what that label was, I picked up a copy of Dietrich Bon Hoffer's book, uh, the Cost of Discipleship because I'd heard my pastor quote him, and I knew the story, and I figured anybody that was trying to assassinate Hitler, you know, must be a good guy and have something to say.

Rich Lusk: And that book was really an eye-opener too, just in. , uh, helping me understand what it really means to be a disciple of Christ. When, uh, Christ calls a man, he bids him to come and die. As Mon Hoffer's famous line, he talks a lot about cheap grace versus costly grace in that book. And it's always stayed with me.

Rich Lusk: And then I, I can still remember it. Uh, this was when the whole Lordship controversy was going on, uh, with, you know, John MacArthur and Zane Hodges and people like that. And I, they had the. Book and the red book, you know, [00:05:00] red pill, blue pill kind of thing. And uh, and I heard John MacArthur, uh, so I picked up his book, the Red Book, uh, the Gospel according to Jesus.

Rich Lusk: And I read that, and it was a real eyeopener too, just in terms of the necessity of. Obedience and the importance of obedience. I, I don't know that MacArthur was as clear about the gospel in that book as he later would become, I, he corrected some things, but in terms of the necessity of obedience, the importance of, uh, being faithful and, and, and striving.

Rich Lusk: and fighting the good fight, all of that. It was, it was a really, really helpful book for me to read. So that kinda launched me down this theological journey. But I, I still had no interest in being a pastor. Uh, I got involved in a, uh, a campus ministry, uh, in, in college. And then the, the pastor ended up going to plant a church.

Rich Lusk: I was pre-med, so I was headed down that track and, um, He, he, he left to go plant this church in Texas before my senior year at Auburn, and, uh, said, Hey, you need to come work for me at the [00:06:00] church. You know, if you want to go to med school later on, you can, uh, but you, you, you definitely need to see if you're called to the ministry.

Rich Lusk: because I, I think you might be. And, uh, so I did that. I ended up going out to Texas and going to work for the church and really never looked back. Uh, worked at that church for several years, kind of a, you know, jack of all trades type position on staff at the church. Did a lot of different things. And uh, and it was just a great experience.

Rich Lusk: And, uh, and I realized, Yeah, this is what God is calling me to do. Uh, ended up going to graduate school, uh, and studying philosophy, uh, at the University of Texas. I, I, I, I looked into going to seminary, but just the way things were at the church and the situation, I was in the, the session there of that, uh, church actually called me to, uh, to an ordained position without a seminary degree, which is a little bit unusual, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to every.

Rich Lusk: Well, yeah, really. I mean, it, it, that, that's the, you know, it just, it depends a lot on your situation, but I was in a situation where it made a lot of sense to do that, and I was able to pick up my [00:07:00] languages, uh, and all that. And, uh, so it worked out really well. Um, I, I was in the PCA for many years, ordained in the pca.

Rich Lusk: Um, Ended up moving from that church in, in Austin, Texas to uh, what was known as Auburn Avenue, uh, which was PCA at the time in Monroe, Louisiana. And then took this call, uh, to the church here in Birmingham. And, um, . Yeah, God's been very good, very good to me, very faithful. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, everything's by the grace of God, of course, but, uh, I'm very grateful for what God has enabled me to, to do as a pastor.

Rich Lusk: I've very much enjoyed my calling as a pastor. It's not always easy. Uh, but, uh, and, and again, it's not anything that I was, uh, you know, had you asked me when I was 20 years old, are you gonna be a pastor someday? I would've just laughed at you. But, um, you know, that's often how it goes. We, we think we have things all mapped out only to find out that God's got a different, very, very different route for us to take.

Nathan Spearing: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I told, uh, [00:08:00] C Wiley that that was a, that's a rung up in my book that you weren't, you know, growing up wanting to be a pastor and that God. basically drags you into it and, uh, and pull pulls you into it. So did you graduate from Auburn then and then went Yeah, I

Rich Lusk: sure did. Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's a long story in itself, but yeah, so graduated from Auburn and then moved out to Austin to work at the church.

Rich Lusk: So, yeah. You know, one thing about that, you know, I, I heard, I've heard people through the years say, uh, you know, if only become a pastor if you can't do anything. And I think that's terrible advice. That's just terrible advice. I mean, I understand why somebody might say that, but, uh, that's how you end up with a lot of underperforming, uh, poorly qualified pastors.

Rich Lusk: Amen. Um, you know, I, that, that's, that's not the right way to think about it. Uh, you should become a pastor if it's clear that God is calling you down this pathway to ordained ministry. Um, obviously most Christians are not gonna be, you know, most Christian men are not gonna be pastors. You can serve God in all kinds of different vocations, [00:09:00] and that's perfectly appropriate.

Rich Lusk: But obviously God needs, God desires to raise up faithful men, uh, to serve as pastors in his church. And, and, uh, I would say, especially in our era, it's, it's very important for a pastor to be competent, to have wisdom, uh, to. To have courage, uh, in order to be a skillful preacher and teacher of the word of God.

Rich Lusk: You've gotta be diligent. You've gotta be a hardworking student of scripture. So, you know, to, to, I, I don't think pastoral ministries should sort of get the leftovers, oh, these are the guys that couldn't do anything else. Let's make them pastors. Uh, it should be men who are qualified and could do all kinds of other things, but, uh, God calls them into this particular kind of,

Nathan Spearing: Yeah, I, uh, I don't want to go too far out on a limb, but I've kind of been kicking around a, a podcast episode critiquing missions as well, because I feel like, um, not everyone, and I, obviously our church does, does their due diligence on who we [00:10:00] support and stuff, but there's, I've had experience with a lot of people that, that would try five or six different business endeavors.

Nathan Spearing: and not be able to do well at it. Mm-hmm. , and then eventually kind of just fall into it because it's this, it's got this moniker where you can just, oh, I'm doing God's work now. Oh, okay. We can, we we'll pay, you couldn't earn a profit in the free market, or you wouldn't honor contracts in the free market and do a good job.

Nathan Spearing: And so now you can slap a Jesus sticker. and everybody starts throwing money your way to Right. You know? Right. To actually not really work that hard compared to, yeah, this happens. Some of this stuff. Yeah.

Rich Lusk: And, and I can tell you, you know, I've, I've known a lot of really faithful, diligent, very hardworking pastors.

Rich Lusk: I've known some pastors who worked too hard, quite frankly. Uh, but I've also known some really lazy pastors, and that's true in the mission field as well, where honestly, a lot of times there's even less accountability, uh, and less oversight. So yeah, [00:11:00] it's one of those things where, I mean, you have to, you know, it's really interesting to me that in First Timothy, first Timothy three, as Paul is getting into the qualifications for.

Rich Lusk: Pastoral ministry. He says, if, if a man has ambition to be a bishop, that's a good thing. Mm-hmm. . So there has to be an ambition. There has to be a drive, there has to be this. , you know, this does, which I think Paul himself modeled. Paul was incredibly ambitious. Uh, and even talks about that like in Romans 15.

Rich Lusk: It's his, it's his ambitions to take the gospel where it hasn't been before. Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, he was very ambitious as a missionary. We need ambitious pastors who wanted to grow their churches and have an influence. We need ambitious missionaries who want to, you know, be like William. and when whole nations and whole continents to Christ, uh, a lot of times I think we, uh, we're, we're not nearly ambitious enough.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. .

Nathan Spearing: So, um, where, at what point did your, I, I can't do the math kind of on the fly. What point did your wife [00:12:00] enter the picture? Um, yeah, yeah.

Rich Lusk: So, uh, we met in college and got married basically the week after we graduated college. So we had one of those, uh, What's been called a cornerstone marriage where you kind of start out with nothing and build a life together.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , which has been great. Uh, we've, we've loved it that way. Uh, so we got married right outta college. Uh, I took, quite frankly, a very low paying job in Austin, Texas to work with this church. She took, uh, an even lower paying job to teach at a private Christian school. And, uh, we just went from there and, uh, you know, we kinda always had this.

Rich Lusk: That, you know, this is what God has called us to. And, uh, you know, we've always wanted to be involved in the church and in things like Christian education. Uh, and, uh, and God's just opened those doors for us over the years. Obviously once, you know, once kids came along, she was a, a, I don't wanna say a stay-at-home mom, cause I never think that really captures everything, but she was a true homemaker and, you know mm-hmm.

Rich Lusk: in every sense of the term, uh, you know, raising her kids. And then when they got a good bit older, [00:13:00] um, she. Part-time at a classical Christian school, uh, here close to, it's actually the one where my kids went, so.

Nathan Spearing: Okay. And so you guys were, um, you're probably, uh, if you're getting married right outta college, you're waiting through the professional thing while you're still engaged, but very much talking about it, and that's kind of was a, was a stop on the road towards ministry to get married and, or, or it happened after the fact or how I, I guess I'm, I'm always interested to, how that vocational, you know, how you're char charting that course as a, as a married couple and Well, and trying to figure things out.

Rich Lusk: you know, my wife likes to joke that, you know, there's a kind of bait and switch because when we started, uh, dating each other, I was pre-med, so she thought she was gonna marry a doctor. . Yeah. But, but here's the thing. She knew that I was gonna be in pr pastoral ministry before I did. You know, she, she kind of figured out that, that, that that's really where I needed to be.

Rich Lusk: And like I said, I mean this, the, the campus [00:14:00] pastor that I had came and, you know, he kinda turned the screws on me and said, it is kind of like a, you. A Ferrell going to Calvin saying, you've gotta stay here in Geneva and help us, or your studies will be cursed, kind of thing. It's like mm-hmm. , how do you say no to that?

Rich Lusk: Uh, it was kind of a, you know, arm twisting, this is what you need to do. Okay. Yes. Actually, now I, I see the light. Uh, you're right. That's what I need to go do. But she had kinda already figured that out even before I had, I think. And, uh, so. .

Nathan Spearing: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I Do you know the name Peter Doyle? I imagine you do.

Nathan Spearing: I sure do. Yep. Went to his church. My parents both graduated from Auburn and then Oh, great. Were under him, uh, going through school and still actually were, I

Rich Lusk: was under him as well. Yeah. They,

Nathan Spearing: uh, sent me a photo. They were at dinner with him last week or the week before. Um, wow. We actually read his. His books, um, that he published.

Nathan Spearing: I think originally were focused on the family, the Adventures and

Rich Lusk: Odyssey, uh, books or the,

Nathan Spearing: and there there were the, the Daring Adventure Series or whatever. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's right. Yeah. And then he [00:15:00] also had the American Revolution ones as well, and we got 'em actually off the typewriter in a manila folder before they were published.

Nathan Spearing: Like my dad actually read 'em to us before the editor. Uh, took out some of the, the Marshall things in the, with, uh, like, it was pretty crazy. Like we read the end up reading the ones that got published and we're like, what? She shot above the guy in the, in the actual book. She shot 'em and killed him. You know, , like

Rich Lusk: Well, you know, Dr. Joel, who is one of my favorites, you know, he, uh, so he was the one, so when I was in, you know, I was in college and I was going to his church. I was sitting under his, his his preaching wonderful preacher. . And uh, and also, uh, he did a, a, a college men's Bible study. Mm-hmm. . And it was incredibly helpful because he, more than anyone else, I had been around to that point, he, he was able to talk about, um, men and women.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , the differences between men and women, uh, are unique callings and unique glories as men and [00:16:00] women. Uh, r you know, roles within marriage and how those roles are, are, are rooted in our nature's. Uh, he, he, he just did an incredible job and it real, you know, it was one of those things that I, it was not.

Rich Lusk: Uh, it was definitely something I was interested in. Obviously, you know, as, as somebody who wants to be a student of scripture, but I didn't really have a whole lot of direction and I'm so thankful. I mean, even looking back on things now, there are things that he said when I sat under his ministry as a college student that I still think of all the time.

Rich Lusk: Uh, that is just very formative. Uh, I remember he gave us a book to. , uh, called man and woman and Christian perspective by, uh, this German theologian Warner, newer, and I remember thinking, uh, you know, some German, Theo, you know, some modern German theologian. How could he possibly have anything useful to say about men and women?

Rich Lusk: Just assuming that it had to be, some kind of liberalism or egalitarianism is gonna be, you know, snuck in through the back door, but read the book and found it to be an amazing book. Incredibly. Uh, biblical and, and I would say, you know, conservative, traditional in its [00:17:00] outlook on the sexes and super helpful.

Rich Lusk: He had a, made a number of other, uh, reading recommendations that were really helpful. So yeah, sitting in his Bible study and, and all of that, very, very helpful. Very formative in my own understanding of a theology of the sexes. Uh, and, and he definitely, uh, painted a picture of marriage that was very attractive and compelling where you would want to get married.

Rich Lusk: You know, so many young people today just have. no real interest or desire in marriage. They don't, they don't see anything glorious about marriage. Uh, but he, he really helped us see, uh, the glory of marriage where, uh, man and woman together are, or a symbol of the gospel in their relationship with each other and what that means.

Rich Lusk: So just, I I, I'm so thankful for his ministry that that's, that's great that you've got a connection with him as well. And I will, Hi. His, the, the, the, his books do a great job and obviously they have been sanitized somewhat. I do remember him talking about that, but yeah. Uh, his books did a great job of sort of pulling out those differences between [00:18:00] boys and girls, men and women.

Rich Lusk: And, you know, to, to me he's kinda like Chesterton. I mean, know Chesterton gets a lot of things wrong. He's not really trustworthy as a theologian or a, or a historian, but Chesterton delighted in the differences between the sexes. Mm-hmm. , and there's just kind of this. Um, jovial outlook on marital life for that reason.

Rich Lusk: And, and Dr. Doyle really had the same kind of thing, really captured that, uh, just, um, in, you know, just being fascinated by and enjoying the differences between men and women, those God ordained differences between us. And, uh, that was really a wonderful.

Nathan Spearing: Well, and he is sitting at their table too and watching him, you know, he's, not only is he, he preaching about it and teaching about it, but if you ever get to sit and watch him interact with his wife, I did.

Nathan Spearing: And just tell Pleasant, you know, and he would make those jokes, like kind of the chauvinistic, almost jokes about now, dear, dear, you know, whatever. And she'd just roll her eyes, you know? It was just like a funny banter between 'em that just was [00:19:00] hilarious. Um, yeah, and, and she's brilliant and cultivating, , um, all kinds of different skills and training, you know, young women and all that stuff too.

Nathan Spearing: It's just, yeah. It's a, it's a, it's an example. I think it's one of those things that you don't really realize, um, until, until you're out in the big, wide world. What a gift it was to kind of be exposed to that informative

Rich Lusk: years. Yeah. Their's, their relationship in that way Kind of makes me think this must have been what, uh, Martin Luther and Katie were like in their interactions with each other.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , kind of this playful banter, you know, whenever I talk. Headship and submission as you know, what the man is called to in marriage, what the woman is called to, I always liken it to a dance, you know, where the man leads? Mm-hmm. And the woman follows. She's not passive, she's active as a follower, but she is following his lead.

Rich Lusk: So he's initiating. She's responding all that. and when you are around, uh, a couple that has a really faithful and biblically oriented marriage, just their daily life kind of feels like you're witnessing a dance. [00:20:00] Mm-hmm. , I mean, they're not on the dance floor. They're engaging maybe over the dinner table or wherever, but it feels like there's a dance going on between these two people.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. and, and that was always the sense that I had when I was around them.

Nathan Spearing: And Yeah. And I think that the indication too is I've. With other guests on the podcast is if you witness that dance and people embracing that role of headship and submission as you, you phrased it and it, nobody's looking at that woman and thinking, oh, poor her, she's so oppressed.

Nathan Spearing: You know? Right. That's right. She, it's, it's vibrant. It's, it's a demeanor and a, a kind of meta narrative of their life is just overflowing creativity and joy and Right. And it's in a sense. The things that, that she wouldn't have to normally, you know, the, the feminist agenda will prop it up as like, you, all these things you get to be in charge of and you don't need a man that, that actually beat you down as a woman when, when there's not someone else to handle that, uh, that some of that external [00:21:00] security kind of things and, and all the different things.

Nathan Spearing: So I, I think it's,

Rich Lusk: yeah, that, that's, that's exactly right. And, and, and so it, it contradicts everything that our culture says about the male female relationship. Everything our culture says about intersexual dynamics is just wrong. So our culture thinks that the key to female happiness is feminism.

Rich Lusk: And so, you know, you get some feminism and then women are not real happy about it. So then they double down and want even more feminism so they get more of it and then they're even more miserable. Um, and I saw this morning where, you know, now. It's like we have unprecedented levels of female unhappiness trickling down even to, you know, teenage girls and pre-teen girls.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. . So, you know, what, what's going on? Why all of this female misery? Well, it's because the, they are rebelling against, , the way God designed them to live. They're rebelling against their own nature. They're rebelling against God's word, God's law, uh, and, and God's calling for them. But then you look at a marriage like, you know, so what, what a feminist would call oppressive [00:22:00] because it's biblical where there's clear, you know, clearly the man is the head and the woman is in submission to him, and yet the woman is gloriously.

Rich Lusk: Uh, and, and we've had people come and, and join our church who have said the same thing. We've, I've had several people, even in the last few years tell me this, uh, seems like especially more recently it's happened, uh, where people joining our church and they'll say, you know, one of the things that stood out to us is that in your church, the men are men and the women are women, and everybody's happy about that.

Rich Lusk: Like, The, the, the, the men are clearly the leaders and, and the heads of their households, and the women are really happy about it. And that really stood out. And I'm like, well, great. You know, praise God. That's what we want, and that's what we would expect to see. Yeah, that's,

Nathan Spearing: we've gotten lots of comments from people coming in and just saying, you know, the men singing as well.

Nathan Spearing: Mm-hmm. , there's just a different feel. , uh, that, that male voices, uh, in the, you know, singing out loud, there's a, there's a church [00:23:00] militant aspect to it that resonates for guys coming in. I mean, there's, some guys have come in and said, I, I, I have not experienced anything like that. You know? Uh, yeah. In a

Rich Lusk: long.

Rich Lusk: Yeah. And, and so, I mean, and, and actually that's another great metaphor to use for this kind of thing, is, uh, you know, like singing it, say in a choir or a congregation, singing in parts mm-hmm. , what feminism, or what egalitarianism does is it says, Hey, if women want their voices to be heard, they've gotta sing the base part.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. . Okay. But women can't do that. They, they can't, they never be able to hit the base notes the way a man can't. But feminism. . That's what you have to do to make your voice be heard, to make it count. And then of course, quite honestly, with egalitarianism, they've got the men trying to sing the soprano part.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. . It just doesn't work. It, it just, it goes kind. So what I say is, look, men and women, you know, we're, we're, we're both made in the image of God. We, we, we, you know, in that sense, you can talk about equality between men and women. We have equal worth, equal value, all of that equal, um, [00:24:00] redemption, uh, all, you know, all of that you can say is equal between men and women, but,

Rich Lusk: What, what we really have to emphasize I think in our cultural context are these God ordained differences between men and women that are absolutely glorious. Mm-hmm. , uh, you need men singing their part and you need women singing their part, and it's gonna be a disaster if they try to sing each other's parts.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , but that's what our culture is pressing people to do.

Nathan Spearing: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's. For the, those that have their heads screwed on straight, ,

Nathan Spearing: It's a, it's a circus more than it is. Anything that is, is awe inspiring. ,

Rich Lusk: totally agree.

Nathan Spearing: So let's shift over to the, um, why you should bring your gun to church. Um, and, uh, I, I mentioned kind of pre-interview, um, I think that some of the reason why men, and I know, , Lars and I talked last week just a little bit about this, about how there's this, , It feels, uh, effeminate or, and it feels homosexual in some way.

Nathan Spearing: Like Jesus needs to be your [00:25:00] boyfriend. And, and there's this, this, in the big evangelical culture in some ways that men feel like they have to. Check their, put their man card in the slot outside when they go through the front door of church. And then maybe they get it back if they're, if they can, however fast they can get out the door and grab their man card and go back to the Super Bowl or, the different things.

Nathan Spearing: What are, , as a pastor in observing these kind of trends , comment on that and how you kind of, the. Time in history that the church finds itself. And then, in some of the ways why we're experiencing in our particular circles of church, historic growth and, and why that is.

Rich Lusk: Yeah. one thing that I think we need to be really clear about is that it is, IM. for, uh, one Sex to Thrive while the other flounders mm-hmm. . So, you know, you'll hear some people talk about, well, there's a crisis, uh, amongst men. Mm-hmm. men are in crisis.

Rich Lusk: Men, men are dropping out of the [00:26:00] workforce. Uh, men are living in their parents' basements when they should be out getting jobs and starting families. Uh, there's a failure of, of, of boys to launch into manhood. Uh, Warren Ferrells talked about the boyhood crisis and how boys are struggling in school. Uh, male suicide is, you know, is, is really high.

Rich Lusk: Uh, you can talk about all those kind of things and all that's true. There is a, a, a, uh, a crisis, uh, amongst men. But the way God has made the world and the way God has designed the sexes to relate, uh, it is impossible for one sex to. while the other fails. Okay. That's, that's actually the lie of feminism.

Rich Lusk: And, and it's really, I mean, I've, I, I frequently say that feminism was really the first form of identity politics in American history because it separated out women as a distinct group and ultimately with women's suffrage, a, a voting block, a political group, and, and said women have interests of their own.

Rich Lusk: That might be contrary to men's. They're their husband's [00:27:00] interest or even their children's interests. Women have their own interests. They're their own interest group. And, um, that's a disaster. Obviously, it's a disaster for marriage and it's a disaster for the family and the household. But what I think is really important to understand is that if men are struggling, women are too, may not show up the same way.

Rich Lusk: But if, if men are floundering, women are too. If there's a crisis in masculinity, there's a corresponding crisis in femininity. So there are people who will say, oh, well, you know, men are really struggling and women are doing great because more women are going to college than never before. And, and women are doing this, doing that.

Rich Lusk: You know, at the Super Bowl I hear we had the first all female flyover. Okay. You know, like, I don't know why we're supposed to celebrate that since men have been doing this for years. What's the big deal? But, uh, you know, they, they, they make a huge deal outta stuff like that. Well, um, that does not mean that women are doing well.

Rich Lusk: And, and actually when they, and I made reference to this before, but when they do, um, , you know, these surveys of things like, uh, happiness and [00:28:00] wellbeing and whatnot, women, uh, are, are, you know, the, the modern woman is largely a miserable creature. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, and again, this is because women and men stand or fall together.

Rich Lusk: Uh, we will either succeed together or fail together, but, uh, you can't really have a battle of the sexist where one wins and. Loses. It just, that's just not the way the world works. So there is a crisis in masculinity. The church has lost its men, by and large. Uh, the church has very little, uh, that appeals to men.

Rich Lusk: Uh, and this has been going on for a really long time. And you can trace out the history of this. You know, if you read like, I know Leon Podunk book, I think that's how you say his name. Um, uh, I think it's called the Church Impotent. Uh, you know, traces us back to medieval times. I'm a little bit skeptical of that thesis, uh, because there's, there's too much intervening history and too many times when the church has done quite well with men, uh, in the intervening centuries.

Rich Lusk: But in general, in the modern west, particularly going back to, uh, say [00:29:00] the 19th century. Uh, it's church has not really had much appeal to men. The church culture in America and in western culture in general has been very feminized. It's become very effeminate. Some of that is the music that you mentioned.

Rich Lusk: Uh, it's, you know, kind of Jesus is my girlfriend type music. Uh, some of that is that, uh, the men who went into the pastorate were often, uh, repulsive to, uh, to men in general, uh, because they were very effeminate, they were weak. They were coward. And that was manifested in their preaching. Uh, some of it is that, uh, the church adopted, uh, feminine forms of piety and spirituality and elevated them so that in, you know, in a lot of, um, 19th and, and early 20th century literature especially, uh, it's almost as if women are angels, men are demons.

Rich Lusk: And the, it's like you'll have. You know, basically women are put almost in the place of the Holy Spirit in a way, uh, very often [00:30:00] in, in various forms of literature, fiction and non-fiction, uh, women's spirituality elevated above men's, which makes it seem like spirituality is for women. And then, you know, men do kind of all the rugged stuff out in the world that has nothing to do with God or Jesus or the Bible.

Rich Lusk: Uh, this is reflected in. You know, say country music, you know, you have a, it's kind of a common theme in country music where, you know, uh, grandpa cusses and, and chews tobacco, and, uh, grandma knows every hymn in the him book kind of thing. You know, that that kind of motif is really, really common. So, you know, grandma's a saint, grandpa's a kind of thing, and, and there's just that, that, um, that's a, that's been a very common, um, motif and so, so churches, even churches that have.

Rich Lusk: All male officers have basically become matriarchies. Hmm. Uh, where, where women really, uh, determine the culture of the church. And, and it, it's a, it becomes a very, uh, [00:31:00] feminized, uh, environment that is rather repulsive to most men. Uh, so, you know, men and especially, you know, blue collar type men walk in and they can immediately tell this is not a place for them in any kind of,

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. and, uh, the music and, and preaching and just the overall culture of the place is, uh, just repels them in the meantime. And, and you made reference to this in the meantime, you know, you've got all of these, uh, particularly online figures that have emerged that have a very viable message for men. Now it's.

Rich Lusk: Inadequate. It's distorted. There's, there's all kinds of problems with it, but it has a real appeal to men. So you've got the Jordan Petersons and the Joe Rogans and, uh, and, you know, and all these kind of, they're mostly secular figures who, who have, uh, developed huge followings, uh, among men. And it's because they actually understand men's issues and men's concerns, and they're giving men practical, actionable advice [00:32:00] that in many cases, even though.

Rich Lusk: You know, these, these teachers may be missing the big picture in the sense that they don't have Christ, they don't have the wisdom that comes from God's world. They've paid attention enough to the way the world actually works, that they can give some advice that is sound, and in many cases, superior to the feminized advice, uh, that men would be getting from.

Rich Lusk: Pastors were in their churches. And so there's been this real disconnect between men in the church and then you've got men who are gravitating towards these other kinds of figures and, and basically, you know, using somebody like a Jordan Peterson as a kind of surrogate pastor, or in some cases a surrogate father.

Rich Lusk: Since, you know, you've also got this whole issue of now. with the, with the breakup of the family and our culture with, you know, half the kids in America being raised in broken homes. You've got, um, you, you've got a whole generation of boys who are, who are looking for a father figure, and they'll, they'll latch on to anybody who seems to have a, a message that resonates deep [00:33:00] within them that, that, that seems to connect with their masculinity and their masculine instincts.

Rich Lusk: So yeah, the, the, the church has missed badly on this and, and it's a real. .

Nathan Spearing: So what? What do you think? You know, I know that it's not a good tactic to replicate. , even though the church has done it, replicate a rock concert model or a, you know, a seeker sensitive, if you will, type model to, for, you know, flashy marketing campaigns and influencer pastors and things like that.

Nathan Spearing: But I know you're engaged in some, some new mediums, uh, some podcastings, things like that. And, and also, I'm sure that , there's local men's things happening in. your circles. So what are, what are some of the things that, you know, obviously we, we have a, a view , that the, , death has been conquered.

Nathan Spearing: Christ is victorious and right, and so we have this confidence. We can have this confidence. Says, man, I've, I've [00:34:00] spoke about it before that when I was on the battlefield. , you know, the, the Stonewall Jackson quote about, you know, being as safe on the battlefield as you are at bed at night. Like, I, I've experienced that the piece of, of the, the gospel, the, the, the reality, the finality of, of what Christ did, and, and make me fearless on the battlefield.

Nathan Spearing: Um, and also in, in some ways now people, oh, hey, what do you got about this Nate? These different, you know, uh, issues with the military, issues with men and stuff. It's like, well, I gotta raise my sons. Uh, well, and that's, you know, do, do good business and, and, and then, you know, model like you just talked about, are they looking, are my kids looking at my wife?

Nathan Spearing: and, and my, my dance with her and thinking mm-hmm. , I want that,

Rich Lusk: you know, and, well, there's so many things here to talk about. Let let, and I'm, we'll barely scratch the surface in the time we have together in terms of what needs [00:35:00] to be done. But I'll, I'll throw a few things out because I, I think sometimes the wrong prescription is offered.

Rich Lusk: So, for example, you mentioned, you know, rock band, you know, kind of using a rock band in church. I don't think there's anything particularly masculine about a rock concert. Mm-hmm. , in fact, , isn't it interesting that long before we had transgenderism, uh, like as a mainstream thing? I mean, you know, I'm a, I grew up in the eighties, okay?

Rich Lusk: Uh, yeah. I mean, all the, all the hard rock and heavy metal vans, all the, all these men were incredibly effeminate. You know, they're limp, wristed, long hair with lots of hairspray, makeup, I mean, I never really understood, you know, understood how that worked. Why these , you know, guys who are playing electric guitar, uh, feel like they need to dress and act like women and so many, so, but there's, there's something weirdly unnatural about it.

Rich Lusk: Um, and I'm not saying that's what happens with churches that have rock bands. Uh, I hopefully not, but I, there, I've, I don't think that's the answer. Um, David Murrow, you know, he, he wrote the [00:36:00] book. , I think it's called, why Men Hate Going to Church. Mm-hmm. . And there's a lot of good counsel in his book.

Rich Lusk: There's also a lot of stuff that I think just kind of misses, like, he, like, one of the things I recall him saying is, well, you know, men like technology, so, you know, become a high tech church and get the men involved in that. I don't think that's an answer. I don't think that really matters. I don't think that really does anything.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , uh, I don't think it really matters whether you're high tech or low tech. Uh, I don't, and I don't think that's how you're gonna keep men in the church by having, you know, the latest, you know, gadget. Or tech stuff, whatever. Um,

Nathan Spearing: I, I just don't think, yeah, I kind of, uh, I think I probably made it 60% of the way through that book on Audible and then was like, I get what he's saying, like, I don't need to finish this anymore.

Nathan Spearing: Like this.

Rich Lusk: Yeah. Mean it's not, it, it, it's not that everything he says is bad, it's just I think he misses what's most important. Here's some things I would say, like if I was, you know, in, in terms of just the recipe one is I think you have to have preaching that ha that is. that is masculine. I mean, why has God ordained, uh, the pastorate in such a way that it's only open [00:37:00] to men?

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , there is something manly about the work itself. Uh, pastoring is masculine work. And if you can't see that, like if, if you think about. what your pastor does, and you think, oh, a woman could do that just as well. Then your pastor's not doing it right? Mm-hmm. , because it ought to be obvious that he's doing things that have a kind of masculine flavor to them.

Rich Lusk: Whether that is rebuking error or whether that's teach. Teach. I mean, the reality is men and women communicate differently, uh, and it, and it's a well-known fact that when women communicate, they tend to. For example, turn declarations into questions and their voice kinda gets higher at the end of the sentence because they're sort of beckoning to you for agreement.

Rich Lusk: Like they want, they, they want affirmation with their statement, whereas men just tend, you know, traditionally men have just spoken in much. It's just much more plain spoken and much more direct in in their speech. Well, I think we need to be really direct and plain in our speech. I, we need, if men are called to preach, then we ought to [00:38:00] sound like men when we preach.

Rich Lusk: You know, if only men can be pastors, then we ought to put on display regularly, uh, those masculine facets of the pastoral work. So that's a big part of it. I, I think preaching courageously against the air, you know, basically being willing to stand against the tide of whatever is going on in the world and pushing back against that.

Rich Lusk: So much of, you know, so many churches today pander to the world in various ways. , I think you saw this. Um, you know, I, I've got, uh, you know, e even even in more conservative, uh, reformed churches, I saw lots of pandering over the L G B T Q stuff. Mm-hmm. and really weird rhetoric used to try to tiptoe around, uh, the homosexual issue like, You know, we shouldn't say that homosexuality condemns people to hell because being heterosexual doesn't save you.

Rich Lusk: What an absolutely idiotic thing to say. Mm. Or the Bible, uh, whispers about sexual [00:39:00] sin. Again, you, what kind of fool would say something like that? I mean, what Bible are you reading? It's just one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, you know, but pe But people say, men say stuff like this from the pulpit, and all I can think is you're just a coward.

Rich Lusk: You just don't wanna say what the Bible says. Mm-hmm. . So I think, I think you have to have preaching that, uh, is, is clearly masculine because God only calls. men to preach, you know? So there's gotta be something masculine about the work itself. Uh, the music, I mean, not every hymn has to be a, you know, a war song of some sort, but there ought to be a lot of hymns that, uh, clearly have a martial orientation.

Rich Lusk: And if you go back before the advent of revivalism in church history, you find a lot of that kind of music that's, that's very. Marshall and its orientation. Uh, we need to remember that worship is warfare and so at least some of our hymns ought to clearly reflect that dimension of what we're doing when we gather for worship.

Rich Lusk: I think in the prayers that we offer, again, the prayers ought to [00:40:00] reflect the priorities of God's kingdom, which is gonna take courage to pray for certain things and against other things we should not be afraid of, implication in, in our prayer. And then I think one of the things that would be most helpful, I mean obviously, you know, discipling.

Rich Lusk: teaching men about, uh, for example, what it means to be a husband, what it means to be a father, all of that, but then supporting them in it. Mm-hmm. , I've seen far too many situations where churches that would profess to believe every word Paul wrote in Ephesians five, when it comes down to it and there's say, a marital crisis, the pastor or the session ju and this is something that's just widespread in our culture.

Rich Lusk: They default to the woman's point of. . Mm-hmm. , uh, they, they tell the man, well, if you just loved her more, like Christ loves the church, then this wouldn't be happening to you. And, and, and some of this I think is they're much more afraid of confronting the woman's sins than the man's sins.

Rich Lusk: I mean, the reality is in most, most every single time when you have a marital breakdown, you have sin on both parts. Uh, you know, both the husband and [00:41:00] wife have sin in various. But I've seen all too many counseling type situations, pastoral, um, situations where only the man's sin got dealt with and the woman got a free pass and her sin was always excused.

Rich Lusk: Whatever he did that somehow excused her sin. I, I think if we really, if we're gonna teach that, uh, you know, men need to be men and men need to be the heads of their. Them, we have to support them in that and support their authority within their own households. Mm-hmm. . Now that doesn't mean we don't rebuke men.

Rich Lusk: I mean, obviously we do when they misuse that authority. And some men do become tyrants in their own homes and. and that's gotta be dealt with. some men become abusive and that's gotta be dealt with. There should be no patience for that, no tolerance for that. But a lot of times they kind of run in the run of the mill ordinary situations where, you know, a marriage just runs into some trouble. , there's sin on both parts, and the assumption of everybody going in is well, Obviously this is all the man's fault. Uh, women don't [00:42:00] really sin and uh, so we need to correct the man and then that'll put the marriage back on track. Well, now there's probably things that she needs to hear as well.

Rich Lusk: She probably needs to be rebuked as well. And one of the things that stands out to me particularly about Paul's pastoral epistles is that he is un flinching and unhesitating and addressing the sins of women. and, and, and Paul addresses very stereotypical sins for men and very stereotypical sins for women.

Rich Lusk: Why don't we do that in the church today? Why, why is there such a reluctance to deal with, the sins, that are, that tend to be sex specific? We just don't really do a lot of that. So I would say, Um, teaching men

Rich Lusk: about the authority and responsibility they have in their homes, but then also supporting them in the exercise of that authority and the fulfillment of those responsibilities in their homes is also really crucial.

Rich Lusk: I mean, I could tell you one story after another of situations where, you know, a a and this might be in a, you know, a, what would be considered a, you know, a [00:43:00] good p c a church or some other kind of reformed church, and the wife commits adultery and ends up leaving her husband for another man and never gets disciplined for it.

Nathan Spearing: Hmm.

Rich Lusk: And the only thing that ever happened in their counseling was he was told to do a better job loving her and, It's like, well, is there anything more? And I'm, I mean, I'm not really exaggerating here at all. I mean, I've, I've seen this play out more than once. And so, uh, we, we have to be willing to confront the sins of both spouses.

Rich Lusk: And so, uh, if, if a man, uh, is gonna meet with his pastor or his session to help. You know, deal with a problem in his marriage. He needs to know that yes, they're gonna confront me about my sin. No question about that. I get that, you know, my wife is gonna, is, will, will, will, uh, you know, we'll let them know the things I've done wrong.

Rich Lusk: And so far as her assessment is accurate, they're gonna rebuke me for that. Mm-hmm. . But he also needs to know that his pastor in his session, half his back and we'll back him up when it comes to the proper exercise of his authority in the home as a husband. And as a [00:44:00] father, and I think very often that doesn't happen.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , and I think that's one reason why men are very reluctant to go seek help, uh, in their marriages because there's really not, it doesn't seem like there's really much help there. Um, there's really not anything that can be done about a rebellious wife because nobody wants to stand up to her. So that, that's another.

Rich Lusk: Uh, issue here that I think, uh, if churches got the reputation for being much more even handed in, dealing with the senses of men and women, both, I think you would see more men take an interest in, in the church and what the church might be able to do for them, and how the church might be able to help them through some hard times.

Nathan Spearing: Yeah. That's an excellent, excellent point. And I, I think I've recently spoke with my pastor. Particular, um, you know, couples that are having trouble and things, and he remarked that, that it's almost like a last ditch effort when they finally involved the, the session or the men of the church. It's like, you should have come to us a long time ago in some sense, and that, that is, I think that is [00:45:00] indicative of, of men generally

Nathan Spearing: it's hard for us to open up about how we. And so we gotta get over that. And we need to have brotherhood in the sense that, um, we have relationship that nobody thinks we're perfect. Like you're not able to keep the facade up when you're in community. And so it's even that much easier to just say, yep, you know, the deal.

Nathan Spearing: Like, I have this, this struggle. You've been with me on this. Um, but at the same time, like, I think that's, that's a really good point too, to say, , is is he gonna come and get. , uh, when he thinks he's gonna get backed up, you know, and there, there can be

Rich Lusk: some. Yeah. Let's, let's say you have a wife who has a spending problem.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , and he's, he's done everything he knows how to do to reign it in, but she still puts too much on the credit card every month, okay? Mm-hmm. , what, what can he do at that point? Mm-hmm. . Well, if, and so let's say he goes to your typical evangelical pastor today. Uh, his pastor is probably not going to do anything to correct the woman, but just tell him he needs to, you know, he needs to do X, [00:46:00] Y, and z.

Rich Lusk: And if he only did better, if he only loved her, Morris Christ loves the church or something like that, then she wouldn't have this spending problem. And, and her sin never gets dealt with. And again, I'm not making these things up. I've seen these things play out again and again, uh, you know, in situations that I'm familiar with.

Rich Lusk: And so it's. It, it, it's just really, um, it, it's one-sided and it's reflective of things that are going on in the culture, uh, where women are pedestal and men are denigrated. I mean, all you have to do is look at anything in pop culture, uh, you know, any. TV, show, movie, whatever. Men are always portrayed as incompetent, bumbling idiots And women are portrayed as basically can do.

Rich Lusk: No wrong in anything they choose is is fully justified that that's just the narrative in the culture right now and. and it seeped into the church. Let me, let me shift gears here a little bit and give you one more thing, sort of one more ingredient. If the church wants to reach men and minister to men, something else the church needs to do.

Rich Lusk: So, I mean, you know, several things I [00:47:00] mentioned to you I think are, are, are crucial, but this one, uh, is really, really important as well. And that is to provide venues and support for male. and male bonding. And that means the recovery of male spaces. I mean, this is another thing that's under attack is that men are not allowed to have their own spaces anymore.

Rich Lusk: Um, now in, in, in the church, I realize that we do, you know, we do have that some, and the culture at large, not so much, but, um, , the church needs to do what it can to support, uh, male friendship. And that's because many men go through life now, uh, experiencing excruciating loneliness. Hmm, uh, without any real companionship.

Rich Lusk: and men have got to have brothers. They've got to have, you know, every David needs a Jonathan and every Jonathan needs David. You, you need to have men with whom you are good friends with whom you can share your struggles and your burdens with whom you can. Uh, be very transparent and, and, [00:48:00] uh, and open yourself up to accountability and hard questions and all of that there.

Rich Lusk: There needs to be, A venue for forming deep male friendships within the church? Yes. Uh, men, once they get outta college, uh, men just have a hard time maintaining friendships. We get busy with family life and pursuing our careers and whatnot, and it seems like those friendships get squeezed out, but they're really crucial to our wellbeing spiritually.

Rich Lusk: Uh, and, and probably, you know, physically and in other ways as well. Uh, but we've gotta find ways to. Support and encourage friendships amongst.

Nathan Spearing: Hmm. That's really, that's really good. I guess it's reflecting on, how I, I have that in my church and maybe, , don't necessarily think about how critical that is to not experiencing that, being excited to go and have, concentric rings that get bigger too. You have two or three guys that you're particularly close [00:49:00] with, and then it, it moves out and there's a larger, right? You have a, 30 or 40 men on a, a group text and then, a couple group texts with, , one or two others that, they're different things that you can talk about or different levels of transparency.

Nathan Spearing: that feeds into in-person stuff,

Rich Lusk: you can't be best friends with everybody, obviously. Mm-hmm. , but you, you need to have an, I mean, think about Jesus, , Jesus has multitudes of people that, that he's around regularly. So huge groups of people. Uh, then, he's got the 12, which is his inner circle, and then he is got the, the three Peter, James and John, kind of the inner circle of the inner circle, the innermost ring, if you will.

Rich Lusk: And that's not being clickish. , uh, that, that's, that's actually just, I mean, that's how friendships work. You can't be best friends with everybody. Uh, friendships, in the very nature of the case have a kind of exclusivity to them. Uh, but every man needs to have a band of brothers, uh, in his life.

Rich Lusk: Every man needs to have a circle of friends that he can rely on, that he can count on, that he [00:50:00] can be honest with. And I, I think that's one of the best things. I mean, you want to talk about helping men, uh, do better in work and in marriage. as fathers. This is, I think actually one of the things that would, that would, that would contribute the most to that is, uh, if we had these, uh, you know, if we had strong and healthy, uh, male friendships within the church.

Nathan Spearing: What are some of the ways that you've seen that accomplished? Well, in your circles, um, in any particular, one of the things I call people out on is to show up. You know? Yeah. You can't race out the back. Of church, you know, at the second to last note of the last hyn and, and round your kids up, like hang out in the lobby for a little bit and chat, you know, like

Rich Lusk: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rich Lusk: I, I mean you have, yeah, so I would say show up is, is a huge part of it. Uh, you know, so, so be a part of what your wider church community is doing. Uh, and, and, and I would say make it a priority and put the effort into it. You know, you think back to the [00:51:00] things that you did that, uh, and, and I think that men really bond.

Rich Lusk: I mean, obviously men need to have conversation with each other. We're doing a conversation here and, you know, uh, I get together with men in my church for lunch and that kind of thing. I do, you know, phone calls, texts, all that kind of thing. But, uh, you know, so all of that's really important. But I also think that men very often bond over.

Rich Lusk: A thrive mission of some sort. Mm-hmm. , uh, so, so common projects work that we do together. Um, I, I, I, I remember, uh, I think it's Dorothy Sayers in her book on work, talks about how, you know, a, a man, I think he was, he was either like a lawyer or a doctor, you know, after the war was over. But he talked about how, how much he missed his days in the military during the war.

Rich Lusk: Mm-hmm. , because it was the one time in his life when he really had close male friendships. . Mm-hmm. . And you think, well, that's kind of sad. It shouldn't be that way. You know, we shouldn't have to be in the military in the middle of a combat situation in order to have good, good male friends. Although [00:52:00] there's no question that good, good friendships come outta that.

Rich Lusk: But, uh, it, it shouldn't be, uh, you know, we, we should be able to have good friendships, period. And yeah. And, and I think that friendship, you know, being, being. Well, being married happily requires a certain set of virtues and skills that you have to work at and that you can master over time. Uh, you know, you may not be a good husband when you first get married, but you can become one if you're willing to learn what the role.

Rich Lusk: What the office of being a husband requires of you, and I would say the same is largely true of, of friendship. You, you, you, you know, you have men who maybe are not very skilled in forming friendships, but if they will work at it, they can form friendships over time. , they may have to ask for some really honest and hard to hear feedback.

Rich Lusk: You know, what are some things I'm doing that are hindering my friendships? Um, just, just like a husband might have to ask that of his wife or somebody else if he's gonna be a better husband. You, you, you know, you need that, uh, honest and, and uh, forthright feedback. [00:53:00] But I think any man should be able to form close friendships if he's really willing to make it a priority and pour himself into it.

Nathan Spearing: Yeah, I think probably too, if you are working. Being a good husband, that also may lend to having friends. Cuz if you're not, if you don't have your wife under control, you're not getting invited over anywhere, and Right.

Rich Lusk: Or, or your kids, you know, if your kids are outta control, so, yeah.

Nathan Spearing: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I know we got on the interview a little bit late and I, don't wanna take too much of your time, I I will obviously link all the stuff in the show notes. I've benefited from the content you and Larson are putting out.

Nathan Spearing: There's some sermons that have benefited me, but what's the, the ways that people can engage with what you're putting out and Yeah. Sure

Rich Lusk: thing. And, uh, yeah, this, this is great. Thank you again so much for having me on you. You've got a great podcast and, uh, and, and glad to be a part of this. Uh, yeah. So, and it's inter, I didn't even know we had the, the, uh, connection with.

Rich Lusk: Um, Dr. Doyle before we started talking, so that was great to hear. Uh, yeah, so, [00:54:00] uh, our church website is trinity pres.net, so if you search for Trinity Presbyterian Church Birmingham, we should come up. But it's trinity pres.net and that's got all sermons Sunday School. And then there's actually a. A a, um, a link there that will take you to the pastor's page, right?

Rich Lusk: Blog. Very occasionally not, not, you know, I'm not a Doug Wilson when it comes to blogging, but every now and then I'll blog something and it's got some con conference audio and things like that. You mentioned my talk. Uh, take Your Guns to church. Uh, you can find that on there. Um, and a number of other conference, uh, talks that I've given and, and things of that nature.

Rich Lusk: So, um, that's how people can find me. I do a podcast. not every other week or so with Larson Hicks, uh, called God a minute. So if you search for God a minute and my name or Larson's name, uh, that should come up for you.

Nathan Spearing: Awesome. Well, I appreciate your time, pastor Lu, taking, taking time away from what you got going on locally and, and, uh, contributing to kind of the greater church [00:55:00] movement and uh, thanks.

Nathan Spearing: Thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

Rich Lusk: Glad to do it, Nathan. Thanks a lot.

What a conversation, right? All the books that we talked about, the pastor's corner on the church website, the links to the got a minute podcast, et cetera, are all located in the show notes and on the. Podcast episode page on our website, spearing dot C O. As always, I really appreciate it. If you just take the time to open your podcast app, give us a five star review.

Maybe drop a line in the comment section of why you reviewed it such to help direct other people to help get the algorithm working in our favor to help. People. That are trying to hit the mark in their life. Also. Share it with a friend. If it helped you, if we provide a value, pass it along to someone.

[00:56:00] Maybe schedule a time to link up with them in person to discuss some of the topics. And as always. Have a good one.